Well-liked representations of the Black Panthers usually deal with their armed self-defense actions, however medical providers and well being justice have been an amazing a part of the occasion’s work. This legacy continues right this moment as Black activists work to remodel the medical industrial advanced and its relationship to the jail system. Erica Woodland (he/him), co-author of Therapeutic Justice Lineages, joins Rattling the Bars to debate this historical past, his present activism, and the function of The Actual Information’s personal beloved Eddie Conway in influencing his path.
Studio/Submit-Manufacturing: Cameron Granadino
Transcript
Mansa Musa: Marshall Eddie Conway, former Black Panther and political prisoner, served roughly 44 years in captivity earlier than he was launched. Whereas in jail, he and his spouse, Dominque Conway, created a sequence of packages designed to boost prisoners’ consciousness. One program was Buddy of a Buddy. Buddy of a Buddy was a mentor program that taught prisoners crucial pondering abilities.
All through his imprisonment, Eddie Conway advocated for the liberation of all political prisoners and the abolishment of the prison-industrial advanced. After his launch in 2014, Eddie joined The Actual Information Community and began this very program, Rattling the Bars.
Not too long ago I interviewed Baltimore native Erica Woodland, one of many many individuals influenced by Eddie Conway and Dominque Conway.
Welcome to Rattling the Bars, Erica.
Erica Woodland: Thanks for having me, Mansa. It’s good to see you.
Mansa Musa: All proper, inform our viewers a bit of bit about your self and one in every of your newest tasks.
Erica Woodland: Yeah, for positive. So I’m born, bred, and raised in Baltimore, East Baltimore, to be particular. And for the previous 20 years, it’s been actually an honor to be a part of abolition work and liberatory hurt discount work, and work that’s actually eager about the right way to disrupt each single facet of the best way the prison justice system disappears our communities.
And so I had the nice pleasure of assembly Eddie Conway 20 years in the past, and after we met, he instantly determined that I used to be going to be half [Musa laughs] of his liberation wrestle — And Eddie, you may’t actually inform him no. And in addition by means of organizing on behalf of his liberation and liberation of all political prisoners and being mentored by him and Dominque Conway, it actually, as a teen, formed the work that I’m doing now, which is primarily targeted on Therapeutic Justice.
And Therapeutic Justice is a political and non secular framework that helps to remind our people who, along with us liberating our minds and revolutionizing our consciousness, we have now to additionally ensure that we’re caring for folks. So feeding folks, ensuring folks have entry to healthcare, ensuring folks have entry to areas for therapeutic and collective grief.
And quite a lot of this work may sound acquainted as a result of it’s the work that the Black Panther Celebration was as much as. However sadly in our actions now, quite a lot of that care and security work has been forgotten, partially as a result of the state has been extraordinarily strategic and profitable, in some ways, of co-opting our actions after which criminalizing our traditions.
So the challenge that I’m spending quite a lot of my time with right this moment is known as Therapeutic Justice Lineages. And so, it began off as an anthology, and I used to be in a position to contribute to this with my pricey comrade Kara Web page, who is likely one of the co-architects of this framework. However Therapeutic Justice Lineages is a chance to inform the true lineage of this framework, which is definitely having us take into consideration what are the ways in which historic and generational trauma are affecting our minds, our our bodies, our spirits, our organizations, our revolutionary teams, and our capacity to truly construct energy to get free, proper?
Mansa Musa: Proper.
Erica Woodland: So when you have got communities which can be extremely traumatized, lower off from primary human wants, they’ve stolen our traditions — White individuals are promoting our traditions again to us.
Mansa Musa: Proper.
Erica Woodland: — And so they’ve demonized our traditions. You’ve gotten communities which can be extra simply surveilled and managed and disappear.
And so the challenge has tried to map quite a lot of completely different voices and making an attempt to carry up examples like, listed here are people who find themselves doing liberation work, but additionally eager about how will we feed folks? How will we love up on folks after they’ve skilled grief, loss, and violence?
However that challenge has led to quite a lot of different points, together with a listening and cultural reminiscence tour that we did in 2023. We went to seven cities throughout the nation to truly carry up native work round therapeutic justice and collective care and security. After which we additionally did technique periods with organizers and practitioners specifically to say, what’s doable when you have got well being therapeutic practitioners and organizers on the similar desk earlier than we flip up on the state?
Mansa Musa: Proper, proper, proper. And that’s a great statement, as a result of me and Dominque talked about this oftentimes, about, as revolutionaries, we discover ourselves in an area that we human, we decided to combat for our liberation, however in that, oftentimes, quite a lot of our feelings get wrapped up in that. And we glance acknowledged that within the Black Panther Celebration — And our anniversary simply handed — We acknowledged that, throughout that interval, and which is an effective statement in your half concerning the therapeutic facet of, is throughout that interval they ain’t don’t have any remedy. They ain’t don’t have any, oh, that is trauma. They ain’t don’t have any, oh, yeah, nicely, you an alcoholic, and it’s a results of the police desirous to kill you, or the police been locked you up seven instances, and also you been locked up, within the seven instances you accomplished spent a complete of 5 years out and in of county jail. You ain’t have that then.
Now that individual facet of the contradiction didn’t subsided, the place the antagonism don’t exist as a result of the formation is just not in the identical area. What will we do now? What will we do? However extra importantly, the teachings realized and the way will we cross it on? I feel that is what you might be telling us proper now. That, OK, we should be on this area proper now as a result of we finally going to have to show it up.
Erica Woodland: Precisely.
Mansa Musa: And after we do flip it up, we need to be in an area the place we don’t discover ourselves so burned out that we turn into suicidal, even when or not it’s within the type of substance use, or not it’s within the type of spousal abuse, all of the issues that we oppose, if we don’t take and have a look at our psychological well being because it pertains to our wrestle. Discuss that.
Erica Woodland: Yeah. No, that is actually essential, and I additionally need to simply identify that I’m a therapist, however principally my work is organizing therapists to grasp their function as politicized. As a result of for me, the prison-industrial advanced is definitely deeply linked to the medical-industrial advanced. And we noticed that very clearly with Eddie’s expertise on the finish of his life. That you’ve social staff like me who’re in positions the place we’re really facilitating the dissolution of households, the place we’re facilitating folks experiencing psychiatric detention and psych hospitals.
And so, one of many issues I need to carry consideration to is I used to be in a position to interview Eddie for the e book. And Eddie’s interview is lots of people’s favourite, as a result of what we all know is that Eddie was prepared to speak about issues that quite a lot of people weren’t prepared to speak about.
Mansa Musa: Proper, proper.
Erica Woodland: And so on this dialog… I’ve been speaking to Eddie about trauma, in all probability our complete relationship, even when I didn’t use that language, as a result of I need to perceive what made it doable for him to outlive these circumstances and maintain onto his humanity, when many, many individuals are out right here they usually have survived a lot much less they usually don’t have that very same connection to their humanity.
So I’m at all times eager about, the place are the ways in which we’re already understanding the right way to heal with out an exterior particular person or skilled? And what are the results of us not taking that work critically? So remedy is one facet, however we have now traditions in Black neighborhood, the ways in which we come collectively after we expertise a loss, the best way that we pour a bit of bit out for the homie that we misplaced to violence. That these are all issues which can be taking place. But when we don’t perceive trauma, then the state can exploit that.
And so within the interview, which is the chapter’s title, “Don’t Give Up and Don’t Make the Identical Errors”, as a result of one of many issues I actually appreciated about my relationship with Eddie is that he was very beneficiant along with his knowledge. He’s very beneficiant about, right here’s what I do know, right here’s what I don’t know, and right here’s the issues we didn’t take into consideration as a result of we didn’t have the language, we didn’t have the instruments.
And the fact is when COINTELPRO got here on the scene, it hadn’t existed earlier than. It’s not just like the Panthers had the data, they didn’t have the playbook. They have been writing the playbook down.
So one of many issues that I’m dedicated to is documenting and preserving our political and non secular traditions. As a result of disconnection from these traditions, that’s a instrument of genocide. That’s basically how the state continues to dominate and management our minds, at the start, and our radical creativeness.
In order that interview we acquired to speak about… You realize, Eddie didn’t essentially name his work therapeutic justice, however I’m like, I wouldn’t even be speaking about therapeutic justice if it wasn’t for the Black Panther Celebration and their dedication to creating positive our folks have been nicely. To creating positive that we preserved our dignity and wholeness, and to say, there’s nothing incorrect with you. There’s one thing incorrect with these circumstances, and we really should construct energy to vary the circumstances. We don’t heal simply to heal. That’s cute, however I don’t need to heal, I don’t need to learn to deal with this, I need to really determine how we alter this, as a result of it’s unacceptable.
Mansa Musa: And what I used to be eager about what you have been saying while you have been saying the way you title the chapter of Eddie and “Don’t Give Up”. As a result of me and him did quite a lot of time collectively, we was incarcerated collectively. And he was my mentor. And I used to at all times joke about him having grey hairs, and I might say 80% of them grey hairs in his head I put it in there myself, from him coping with me.
However when it comes to the way you articulate his outlook, that’s simply the way it was. I recall after I hadn’t seen him for some time, we wound up in an establishment collectively, now JCI, and he stated, man, let’s go as much as the library and speak. So we made a schedule, we’d go to the library as soon as per week and speak. And I didn’t assume an excessive amount of of it on the time. I hadn’t seen you shortly, so we simply catching up. However as we speaking, we’re speaking about occasions. We’re speaking about stuff that’s occurring world wide. We’re speaking about what I’ve been doing. We’re speaking about what he’s doing.
After which it acquired to some extent the place he stated, we was on the brink of carry buddies of the chums in. It acquired to some extent the place he stated like, yeah, nicely, we don’t have to return to the library no extra, and we preparing to do that with this group. And the rationale why I had you come up right here is as a result of I wished to see the place your pondering was at. As a result of I didn’t are available in contact with lots of people within the system that started off a sure method, however as time went on, their pondering didn’t evolve. They regressed, they usually deserted any politics, they deserted any intuition to outlive, they simply allowed themselves mentally to simply accept the place they was at.
And he say, and he was telling me, he stated, nicely, that ain’t you. And I used to be like, man, what you assume? You the one which educated me. So I’m a product of this schooling when it comes to, such as you stated, we didn’t say trauma, we didn’t say therapeutic. If one thing went on. That is what we did.
And I feel that, and I would like you to talk on this, the way you unpack that inside the neighborhood. As a result of historically we at all times accomplished that. And historically we don’t name it, we don’t give it no medical definition. That is what we did. That is our nature, to be there for one another. What occurred?
Erica Woodland: Numerous issues occurred [Musa laughs]. So it is a wonderful means to herald the medical-industrial advanced, which incorporates, clearly, hospitals, well being clinics, docs, nurses. Nevertheless it’s a broader system that features pharmaceutical corporations. And that’s principally a for-profit system that’s making an attempt to surveil, management us, and protect the lifetime of sure folks, primarily white males of wealth, and to exterminate or extract labor from the remainder of us.
So a part of what occurred is, you are taking folks, even if you happen to simply take into consideration the tried genocide towards Indigenous folks on this land. They actually lower you off. They put you in a residential boarding college, lower you off out of your language, lower you off… I imply, this occurred to Black Individuals, too. However I need to simply make that connection as a result of I feel we neglect. And all of this stuff we innately know the right way to do, they flip you towards them. They inform you that’s uncivilized. That’s not the best way to do it.
You then usher in any person who’s deemed skilled. So, I’ve what one in every of my comrades known as colonial credentials. So I’m a licensed medical social employee. I didn’t get that license to be an arm of the state, I acquired that to have the ability to disrupt and perceive how the state is working by means of issues like social work and remedy and the psychological well being system. So I’m an expert, so I get informed I’m authentic. You’re allowed to work with survivors, you’re allowed to do all this therapeutic work.
In the meantime, this work is going on not paid. Folks aren’t getting assist in neighborhood on a regular basis as a result of the overwhelming majority of marginalized folks’s psychological well being assist comes from their buddies, it comes from their members of the family, comes from their homies. Most individuals don’t have entry to remedy. And people therapeutic interventions weren’t designed for us. They have been designed to manage us.
So one of many issues that I do in my work in my group is we actually disrupt that. So we manage psychological well being practitioners — And that features folks like me who’re licensed, nevertheless it consists of all the opposite people who find themselves attending to the emotional and non secular well-being, particularly in my work of queer and trans folks of coloration. So we don’t prioritize my coaching over the precise lived expertise, however you’re getting on-the-job coaching. Truly, no person trains you in any respect. You’re self-taught. You’re taught by neighborhood.
However these relationships is what the state has tried to disrupt. So we wouldn’t want a complete… Nothing’s incorrect with remedy. I feel remedy is definitely an amazing instrument, nevertheless it’s not a cure-all. However we wouldn’t really need therapists in the identical method if our siblings and our members of the family who have been behind these partitions have been house, if we had meals, if the air we have been respiratory was not poisonous. If we really restored our capacity to be in proper relationship with the land and each different being that we have now to be on this planet with, we wouldn’t have this type of trauma.
It doesn’t imply we wouldn’t undergo. However what we’re seeing at this level, at this scale, particularly with the genocides taking place throughout the globe, is that is pointless, manufactured struggling. And if we don’t perceive the way it’s affecting not simply the best way we deal with one another, however how are you going to strategize? How are you going to make a technique that’s really going to work if you find yourself extremely traumatized? And the ways in which you’re making an attempt to heal, the state is saying, oh, you have got a substance abuse drawback? You’re getting locked up. Oh, you might be hallucinating, as an example. We’re going to lock you up in a psychiatric facility and probably offer you compelled remedy — Not probably, offer you compelled remedy that then takes away your rights the identical method that occurs while you’re incarcerated.
So it’s a setup and it’s a rip-off, however I feel there’s a rising dialog within the communities that I’m in of Black and Brown people who find themselves like, we’re going to determine how these methods work, to tear them down, and to abolish them. And we’re additionally going to create options as a result of that’s what we’d like.
In order that story you simply informed about Eddie sitting with you weekly, I used to be like, that was remedy.
Mansa Musa: Precisely.
Erica Woodland: That was you having human to human connection. That was additionally a vetting. I preserve that. I’m like, we have to carry vetting again. I simply had a dialog about that earlier. I’m like, we simply out right here trusting people who haven’t demonstrated that they’re reliable with the form of liberation work that we’re speaking about.
Mansa Musa: And that’s a great segue to speak about Eddie, however I wished to unpack that a bit of bit extra. As a result of proper now you have got trauma, they usually beginning to monetize trauma, saying trauma, resilience, and outline it, [inaudible] and all people and their mom coming round with an method. However on the similar token, it’s the identical previous story and the identical previous tune. It’s only a completely different band enjoying it.
However talking of Eddie, so let’s speak concerning the marketing campaign to exonerate Eddie. And for the advantage of our viewers, this is likely one of the posters that was put out by some school college students along side myself, Erica, and Dominque comrade, and another comrade that’s advocating for Eddie to be exonerated. Communicate on why do you assume that Eddie’s been transitioned? Why is it essential that, in your thoughts, or that our viewers ought to need to know, that we should always attempt to have Eddie exonerated? He’s gone, he was out, he lived his life, and he lived his life to his fullest, or what was left of it.
Erica Woodland: Proper. It is a actually good query and I feel it ties into quite a lot of the archival work that I’ve been part of over the previous three years, that we have now to carry on to the reality of Eddie’s life, Eddie’s work, and what the state did to Eddie. There was no redress. Eddie’s identify has not been cleared, and Eddie was harmless.
So one of many issues that, it occurs with quite a lot of revolutionaries, we’ve seen it many instances, is the sanitization of their precise work. And there’s a method that all of us then form of neglect. You might really make this sound like some form of joyful story in the long run. Oh look, this particular person, wrongfully convicted. Nicely, they acquired out [Musa laughs] in the long run of their life, they have been in a position to do that, that and the third. No, let’s return to the truth that this particular person actually did virtually 44 years for his or her political work, they usually have been focused by the state. And that’s taking place now.
Mansa Musa: Precisely.
Erica Woodland: So to me, a part of the marketing campaign is about telling the reality. That’s at all times, to me, a therapeutic act. To inform the reality of what really occurred, to maneuver with the understanding that this was a wrongdoing. And if we don’t prioritize the exoneration of Eddie and all political prisoners, then when this… Political prisoners are being manufactured proper now.
Mansa Musa: That’s proper.
Erica Woodland: They’re being manufactured proper now.
Mansa Musa: That’s proper.
Erica Woodland: Younger individuals are political prisoners proper now. So that is half of a bigger wrestle to fight state repression. And I feel spiritually it’s additionally actually essential to protect Eddie’s legacy by telling the reality. After which it’s additionally actually essential to consider how that helps our generational therapeutic, our therapeutic as a neighborhood. Any person who did nothing however sacrifice on our behalf, and we’re going to let the state proceed to lie? We’re going to let the state proceed to attempt to manipulate the story of what actually occurred.
Mansa Musa: When me and Dominque was having this dialog and we determined like, nicely, that is one thing that we need to have a look at. And we begin organizing, acquired among the supporters collectively and begin speaking about it. All people had the identical perspective, similar to you stated, it’s about we would like to have the ability to say, such as you say, inform the reality. And it’s essential that we inform the reality about what occurred to Geronimo Pratt, what occurred to Fred Hampton, what occurred to Malcolm. That due to their political opinions and their aspiration to be free, that they was focused and arrange and, typically, assassinated or died a loss of life of a thousand cuts.
And so they did the identical factor with Eddie. And just for no cause aside from the truth that he believed in his proper to self-determination. He believed that he had a proper to be handled as a human being. He had a proper to our folks being free.
Discuss the place we at when it comes to among the issues that we’re doing with the marketing campaign, for the advantage of our viewers and listeners.
Erica Woodland: Yeah, completely. So we’re doing a few issues. We presently have a petition and a web site, which is at marshalleddieconway.com the place you will get details about Eddie’s case and why exoneration is so essential. However you may as well signal the petition in order that we will really put some strain on Gov. Wes Moore to maneuver ahead with this exoneration.
A part of what we’re additionally doing with the web site and with some filmmakers is to assist to doc extra of Eddie’s story, specifically how we construct a case for exoneration and why that’s so essential, I feel, to Baltimore Metropolis specifically. The historical past, the legacy, the revolutionary lineage right here, I solely learn about that due to Eddie. And so that is half of a bigger effort to get Eddie’s story out so we will have redress and justice on this state of affairs, as a lot justice as you may have with how a lot hurt and violence the state has engaged in in the direction of Eddie. However this marketing campaign is basically, actually essential.
And so, I do know we’re additionally doing a little issues arising in 2025 to assist honor Eddie’s legacy round his birthday in April. So there’ll be extra details about that. I’m positive you’ll get the phrase out, Mansa.
Mansa Musa: Yeah, most positively.
Erica Woodland: However proper now we’d like folks to coach themselves and to signal the petition and get the phrase out.
Mansa Musa: And we was actual strategic in ensuring that every one this data that’s popping out about Eddie is just not being repackaged for the advantage of altering the narrative or minimizing his contribution. We was actual aware to ensure that the social media which have any illustration of Eddie is permitted by us. To make sure that the reality — As a result of it’s all concerning the reality.
And on this case, it’d sound cliché, however they are saying the reality will set you free. What we speaking about, the liberty of the reality setting Eddie free when it comes to him being acknowledged for the individual that he was and the influence that he had on people who exists right this moment. Every time anyone are available in contact with Eddie, even to today, they make the statement that the influence that he had on them, how he was in a position to faucet into their pondering, how he was in a position to get them to maximise on their potential.
And that is one thing that we need to ensure that folks perceive. That had he not been arrange, had prices [not been] fabricated towards him, no telling what he would have accomplished. And he accomplished loads whereas he was incarcerated, whereas he was on the plantation. However no telling what he would’ve accomplished.
And I need to return to your level. Political prisoners, younger folks proper now are being manufactured to be political prisoners. And as we transfer ahead on this nation, it will come a time the place they going to be like 1984. Like your ideas, actually going to be the regulation saying, if you happen to assume this manner and then you definately going to be charged with being a terrorist or no matter.
However as we shut out, Erica, inform folks how they’ll get the e book and the place we at when it comes to the exoneration.
Erica Woodland: Completely. So once more, if you would like extra details about the exoneration marketing campaign, that’s at marshalleddieconway.com. After which if you would like any details about the Therapeutic Justice Lineages challenge, we’re at healingjusticelineages.com. And we have now a digital archive that we’re constructing on the market so you may hear extra voices concerning the work.
Mansa Musa: All proper, and you bought the final phrase on this material. What you need to inform our viewers and our viewers as you rattle the bars?
Erica Woodland: I recognize the final phrase. I uncared for to say, the work that we’re doing proper now round Eddie’s legacy can be about getting forward of and interrupting co-optation. And there’s quite a lot of co-optation that occurs right here in Baltimore Metropolis. It occurs all over the place. However there’s a selected method that individuals like to govern the story of revolutionaries to truly gas work that’s deeply dangerous to Black folks. And so, I simply wished to finish on that. That we really should be very clear about we’re defending Eddie’s work and Eddie’s lineage as a result of it deserves that a lot. And co-optation is a instrument of the state. And even when our personal individuals are doing it, it’s unacceptable.
Mansa Musa: There you have got it. The Actual Information spherical about. Erica, you rattled the bars right this moment. And I’m reminded of what you simply say. Dominque reminds us that she owns… She don’t personal Eddie, however she’s not going to let no person co-opt the narrative or taking change who he was. And that is one thing essential that we should at all times be aware of, that we should always by no means let folks proceed to outline us, inform us who we’re, what we’re, and what we’re doing, after which give us some cash to simply accept that what you simply stated about me is appropriate as a result of I’m getting paid. No. Our legacy, our picture, our heritage is just not on the market.
There you have got it. And we ask you to proceed to assist The Actual Information and Rattling the Bars. It’s solely on Actual Information and Rattling the Bars that you simply get this type of data. That we have now an expert therapist. We don’t have an expert medical therapist that’s licensed by the state and acknowledge their state credential. We acquired any person licensed by the folks and acknowledge their folks credentials, which is far more essential than any credentials that they’ll get, although they do have the documentation that the state say they need to have. However when it comes to their utility and apply, it’s all concerning the folks.
Thanks, Erica. Proceed to rattle the bars, and we ask you to proceed to assist The Actual Information and Rattling the Bars. As a result of guess what? We actually are the information.